Discussion Title: Should we ban or avoid any products that involve bees?

1. All products that involve bees in a direct or indirect way should be banned.
1.1. Con: Some bee products are harmless to bees \(such as photographs of them\) and should not be banned.
1.2. Pro: Companies that require bees to make products that they sell utilizing unethical means in order to do so.
1.2.1. Pro: They may ask the public \(and especially customers\) to help with beekeeping in order to keep their company's products in existence \(as without bees, their company will be limited in the products they sell\) in unethical and cruel in multiple ways.
1.2.1.1. Pro: Parts of the public may not be trained \(like citizens\), which is dangerous to both the bees and beekeepers.
1.2.1.1.1. Pro: If people start beekeeping, they may set themselves up to be hurt by bees \(like stung\) and the companies most likely will not pay for those liabilities \(as it isn't truly their responsibility\).
1.2.1.1.2. Pro: People may harm bees unintentionally due to lack of training.
1.2.1.2. Pro: People may start and then give up beekeeping midway, which would lead to harming the bees created. This is worse than if the companies raise the bees onsite, where harming bees in this regard is less likely to happen.
1.2.1.2.1. Pro: Companies are more regulated than citizens in how they manage their business, so unsafe practices are more likely to be caught and limited within companies than in backyards.
1.2.1.2.2. Pro: Citizens are more likely less motivated than businesses to raise bees, so they are more likely to kill them \(like when they get bored of it, lose their hope, move out...\).
1.2.1.3. Pro: This process allows companies to evade bearing costs \(legal, financial, and otherwise\), by placing them onto customers - all while profiting off of it.
1.2.1.3.1. Pro: Getting customers to work for the company without getting paid \(on top of buying their product\), which goes against labor laws.
1.2.1.3.2. Pro: If people get in trouble with laws because of beekeeping to help keep a company's product around, they will have to bear the legal costs, not the company itself.
1.2.2. Pro: Companies spread misinformation about their products to mislead the public into buying their products that utilize bee exploitation by tricking them into thinking that that's not the case, which is unethical.
1.2.2.1. Pro: Companies may mislead their customers by saying that their product is vegan when it isn't. This causes customers to buy a product that they probably would decide not to if they knew the truth, so that companies can continue profiting off of the exploitation of bees 'under the radar' and without issue.
1.2.2.1.1. Pro: One example is tomatoes, which may come from a farm that [utilizes bees to pollinate them](https://xerces.org/wp-content/uploads/2008/11/farming_for_bees_guidelines_xerces_society.pdf) - which is not vegan \(as it requires the [exploitation of animals](https://www.vegansociety.com/go-vegan/definition-veganism), which bees are\). Companies, like [here](https://thrivemarket.com/diets/vegan-diet), may say tomato products are vegan, so people may think they are, when they aren't.
1.3. Pro: People should not consume pollinated crops \(even if bees flew randomly onto them unintentionally\).
1.3.1. Pro: Those bees might have come from farms that buy bees from bees farms with inhumane practices \(such as [using antibiotics](https://www.back40bees.com/about.html)\) and eating foods pollinated by them indirectly supports the inhumane bee farms.
1.3.1.1. Pro: [European bees can be hybridized with Killer bees on purpose for farming honey](https://edis.ifas.ufl.edu/in790), and the random bees could come from there.
1.3.1.1.1. Pro: Hybrid bees are [an invasive species](http://content.time.com/time/specials/packages/article/0,28804,1958657_1958656_1958665,00.html). Not only bad for wildlife, the invasiveness is also bad for people.
1.3.1.1.1.1. Pro: The crossbreed '[Africanized bee](https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Africanized_bee)' behaves more aggressively than other bee species.
1.3.1.2. Pro: [Bred bees designed to pollinate farms get agitated during travel](https://www.buglogical.com/bumble-bees-natural-pollination/), which is harmful to those bees.
1.3.2. Con: If bees come from nature, then those bees benefit from pollinating the farm by feeding their hive.
1.3.2.1. Con: Even those bees are not ethical, as [bees in the wild are unnatural: they might be mixed/accidentally hybridized with bees that came from an inhumane farm if bees are accidentally released from those farms.](https://honeybeesuite.com/monday-morning-myth-africanized-honey-bees-are-apis-mellifera-scutellata/)
1.3.2.1.1. Con: An accidentally mixed or hybridized bee which has been growing up in the wild has not been subject to unethical treatment.
1.3.2.1.1.1. Con: No, but its ancestor could have been. Supporting the bee's descendant could somehow support inhumane treatment as the mixed/hybridized bee would not be alive without its parent.
1.3.3. Pro: Bees could be killed by machinery in the agricultural process.
1.3.3.1. Pro: An example is mechanically plowing the fields when bees are pollinating those crops.
1.3.3.2. Pro: Trucks transporting the finished product could hit bees along the road.
1.3.4. Pro: If the farm uses pesticides unintentionally because they did not expect bees, any bees flying over \(and [their hive](https://www.epa.gov/pollinator-protection/colony-collapse-disorder)\) could be [affected by them](https://www.pbs.org/newshour/science/neonicotinoid-pesticides-slowly-killing-bees).
1.3.5. Pro: There are alternatives to pollinated crops \(where bees are not part of the pollination process\), such as self- or wind-pollinated crops as well as crops pollinated without bees \(using machines or humans\)
1.3.5.1. Con: If bees are not allowed onto a farm to pollinate, then those bees could lose a potential food source \(the crops\).
1.3.6. Con: Bees and other insect pollinators are so prolific that in order not to eat a bee pollinated crop we would need to exterminate or starve bees in order to eat non-bee pollinated crops.